Written by DAMTP   

[shortened discussion what followed the announcement placed bellow]



Johnny Mercer Who cares about the monarchy? They have already had their power stripped by the bourgeoisie. They are a side show, one that distracts from class struggle but no more than the campaign against them does. And what’s the 'boss class', most management doesn’t rule the world, they are mostly employed on behalf of the capitalist class to do the dirty work of running the wages system, and as they are 'employed' are essentially workers themselves. In what way will an art strike affect capitalism? As often self-employed, and often on commission, most working artists don't really have much collective bargaining power unless they are employed in some way whether as artists or on the side. Also how do workers just set up councils and take over the means of production without getting rid of the state or "that body of armed men" as Engels called them The state is a class weapon, we need to send delegates to parliament to strip the parasites of their power first, any attempt to simply take over work places would be at best futile and at worst a blood bath. Other than that I couldn't agree more, with the sentiment at least.

Libby Lawes. Thats where you’re wrong kiddo Johnny! The queen has the power to chuck out any parliament at her will she has the power to do whatever the fuck she likes! Are you aware that there is a constitution of Britain? Check it out - google it!
Ever...y thing in this world that is wrong, malign, corrupt, etc can be traced back to a few elites the queen being one of them.
Wanna change the world or play a part in the most amazing thing happening in the world ever? Read this link and get a better understanding


Libby Lawes. http://www.thebcgroup.org.uk/ here you go


Johnny Mercer. Oh, sorry 'kiddo' how could I possibly forget. My analysis was completely ignoring the fact that there is a world-wide Zionist plot to take over the governments of the world. Its not the capitalist class in general that have the power, its ...just the Rothschilds, and a few others, who just happen to be Jewish of course, or none Jewish as the article bizarrely points out. Karen Karnak, would do well not to associate itself (or yourself) with this conspiritational, anti-semitic rubbish. Then again nutters like this are bound to be attracted to an organisation like DAMT that claims to be "open to dead workers". Bit of fucking clarity here; lets think of useful tactics to encourage our fellow workers to abolish the wages system and end this mystical posturing once and for all! www.worldsocialism.org for those of you who are bored conspiracies and mysticism, and are interested in the potential for a stateless moneyless classless society, based around common ownership and democratic control of the means of production

Karen Karnak. Firstly I should distance myself from any and all anti-semitic fools - which includes eurocentrics like Engels. Next I will return to my own point - The power of the monarchy and all non elected dictatorships is economic (ownership of land ...and not having to work) spiritual/ psychic (symbolic, cultural as well as legislative) and physical - in other words, control and influence on government, corporations, church and army. DAMTP is not interested in organizing artists solely, but moving our activities outside of the bubble of the 'fine' art - i.e. bourgeois culture - and THROUGH the general cultural into broad PSYCHIC production (intellectual and conceptual fields including risk and money!) DAMTP is one of the few unions who do not DENY DEATH unlike most others who do no more than constitute the left wing of capital. As for world socialist - just looks like whitemen trying to tell us what to do... yet again!!!


I beg you, don't waste anymore time with these pseudo revolutionary jokers, but then what would I know, I'm just a "white middle class male" I couldn't possibly have a point!

Andrius Savickas I would rather be a joker :)

Karen Karnak Jon I don’t claim to know all I am on god just another worker like you but comrade your arguments are like those of the EDL - you are just defending white middle class men - your white socialist party is just neo colonial - do you really think that the only difference between a Marxian and a Martian is the rift of a’t’ to a ‘x’?

Karen Karnak DAMTP are part of the trade union movement and world socialist movement whether white middle class like it or not!

Johnny Mercer I know you lot like to think your real post-Marx by banging on about things that don't exist, but 'middle class', you really have taken mysticism to a whole new level this time. Define 'middle class'.

Karen Karnak Meaning depends on situation (time space value) so sometimes middle class=bourgeois sometimes they are different!

Upper class can be aristocracy or bourgeoisie or Both - working class is not always = Proletariat (e.g. national working class loses class consciousness in national) - but as categories or indeed as CLASS (not identity name or nation) woman or black are Proletarian!  

The New Proletarianism is defined by the topography of the lower classes and working class in the Proletariat as the suppression of all other classes and class!

Johnny Mercer all this stuff about non whites and woman all naturally being members of the proletariat what utter nonsense. Under your logic Gaddaffi is a member of the proletariat, not to mention the very queen you claim you want to oust! Haha.

Karen Karnak Yes everyone is able to join the Proletariat! The Queen is welcome to abdicate and join DAMTP!

Middle class can be proletarianised by siding with the interests of the lower class but if lower class side with middle class it is surely bourgoisification!!

Johnny Mercer Ah of course culture, all you have to do these days is pick up a guardian there days and suddenly you’re not a proletariat! I’m not suggesting anyone follows the 'middle class' anymore than they should follow god or the tooth fairy, I think all of us workers regardless of our particular job strata should unite to get rid of system that fucks us over. The irony of your position is that for all your talk of hating art the sort of mystical pretension you lot come out with can only come from artists!

Karen Karnak We are workers using the tools we have to organize against capitalism within our particular industry. That’s how we will go beyond capitalism - your white socialist party are political experts that believe you are experts in revolution - forming your little vanguard leadership is no way of going beyond capitalism it is just reproducing the shit we are in! We don't need you to tell us what to do anymore than we need capitalists to!

Andrius Savickas Karen is making a good point here - that SPGB is reproducing the boredom of everyday life... and in the last argument about 'hating art', now (it didn’t seem like that earlier) you mean that you are chucking away the class issues from 'art' (that is a thing we hate about art, which is the INSTITUTION of art that we are talking about) and you deny the experimentation - which always was and is practiced by proletariat - which once might fall into 'art' discourse, the other time in 'literature', the next time in 'nutter' lifestyle etc.

The way SPGB does, 'to convince', is to conquer without a conception (as Walter Benjamin wrote about men chasing women)...Who is having fun? The one who sees his' (party's) line being accepted? Yes (!)? The attempts of being serious are usually the funniest thing. Not everything in nature is straight, man! I don’t know, I think real life lies elsewhere...


Johnny Mercer Stance. Let us clear up this discourse a bit and start from what we have in common. I think or at least hope that we all stand for the abolition of the wages system, by this I mean not just 'anti capitalism' but its replacement with a system based around common ownership and democratic control of the means by which LIFE is produced. We do not I think believe in any state run economy. So lets start from there, how best do we achieve our goal? This is not in anyway to prescribe a fixed 'solution'.

The future post capitalist society depends on context and by this I mean it is up to each worker based on factor such as geographical/historical position. We can no more imagine how exactly such a society Will run than bodicea could have imagined capitalism. We can however know what features it Will not have in order to be truly post capitalist, for example it would have to be by definition wageless moneyless stateless etc.

Then as we are working on the basis as well I think/hope, it has to be non leadership based or non vanguardist. So it cannot be our work alone. This is not an ethical preference or a tactical preference but a practical necessity. It has to be the work of the working class ourselves. Which includes 'us' regardless of skin color set our job strata. We then whether we like it or not are entering an ideological battle, one that stems from an economic one. How is this battle best fought?

Through clarity and discourse I would suggest. I for example put it to you Karen that a white male primary school teacher has more in common with a black female factory worker and she with him, than either do with a female/male white/black (to use an oversimplified distition) member of the capitalist class, they are or better put we are united by our common relation to the means of production and our common interest to abolish a society that renders us slaves. Now am I wrong?

Karen Karnak Fortunately for you you do not know what racism is - it is in the interests of whites to defend European notions of rationality enlightenment discourse - there is no reality to being black outside of the racism that defines us as irrational... savage foolish athletic musical etc our class (not individual) interests are different from yours. If uncle toms get elected it does not elevate blackness - the middle class have clearly different interests to both upper and lower e.g. low interest rates suit people with a mortgage but owners of land as well as those who rent prefer high rates because of high returns and low price

Johnny Mercer Under your logic then all black people as unenlightened irrational and any who aren’t have just been turned white, in insulting to those black people, like members of the WSM who believe in socialism.

Karen Karnak the problem here is that you have no experience of black liberation struggle - I would say you have little experience of class struggle at all. Your thought/action is based on academic theory not the reality of struggle. The crass stereotypes you present above are typical of your thinking - and yes you are wrong - women or blacks are forced into solidarity regardless of class and this happens all over the world in situations which are to the benefit of white middle class men. I continue to engage with you because it is not just you but your class - others like you, white, middle class men that may also benefit from this exchange as I do think you are sincere in wanting to change. DAMTP - who you have attacked repeatedly - are a self organized workers group and I suggest that you try and organize internationally with other workers as a worker - in doing so you will begin to find that the reality of class struggle is not to be found in text books or dictated by the party line.

DAMTP - that’s the target of your attack. Defending the interests of whites is what you are doing in attacking DAMTP for having a dead workers union. If u read our reasoning behind starting the dead workers union u would know it was based on defending Muslim communist positions from wahabi and sharia attacks. In doing so we are also attacking European notions of scientific rationality which posits blacks as savage and whites as civilized. By putting forward your white socialists as the only rational coherent version of communism you are indeed defending "white interests".

Rationality is a bore. Your limited experience means all you have is your logic - I’ve already made it clear that class struggle is not just in your books and party line. The material conditions of struggle lead Muslim national communism to be used to resist the Bolsheviks and other expressions of the ruling class around the world. Race is only not an issue if you are white - and that’s because u are privileged never to have experienced racism! When u want to engage in class struggle and not just rhetoric DAMTP is waiting for you.

And I implore you to reject your white, middle-class interests!



Reason is a journey in psychic dimensions
it is very important but it is only in combination
with other journeys on other dimensions
can you approach corporeality
and become more than just a stereotype!

Johnny Mercer The WSM aims for its own destruction, we do not want to exist as an organization, in a socialist society there wouldn’t be a state to suppress anyone, and if there are still groups cutting themselves off from the rest of our class then we won’t get to socialism at all anyway. We reject the idea of socialism at the point of a gun. Why did I join DAMTP?

If you mean what did I see positive in your DAMTP proposal, well I guess the getting rid of the artist/worker divide as well as any attempts to make a mass union, however hard a task, or flawed your tactics. I also thought that there was room for discourse and those matters of conflict could be ironed out or at least put aside. Unfortunately the differences were larger than I had imagined.

Karen Karnak If you don’t believe in lead you’re already dead!

Johnny Mercer If you speak for your organization when you say that: capitalist society isn't composed of two fundamental classes, the owners and controllers of the means of production who subsequently live off the labour of a second class; those forced to sell their labour power for a wage or a salary in order to live, but has a third "middle class" that’s interests are in antagonism with both sections.
Or that: interests are not divided solely into class, but there is such a thing as "racial interest" at play. And that all women and "non-whites" (to use a ridicules distinction imposed by you, not me), are all naturally members of the proletariat.
Or further still that someone’s opinions can therefore be dismissed on the grounds of their suppose race or supposed class, then yes it would be dishonest and counter productive to my own goal (socialism) to associate myself with such a movement, as I do not agree with any of these opinions.
If however this is not the official stance of the DAMTP, and other members agree with me, then I will reconsider. I am essentially interested in a trade union of cultural workers (even though the collective bargaining power of such workers is highly limited by the nature of their job role). I also think that such a Union should affiliate itself with other unions-as well as other organs of working class defense. I would also (obviously) like to see the class struggle brought beyond the demand "a fair days pay for a fair days work, into the revolutionary watchword; the abolition of the wages system" to paraphrase that Eurocentric, internationalist, statist, anarchist, reformist, revolutionary, historian, economist, sociologist, political theorist, sexist, feminist, we all love and hate Herr Marx.
So basically, where does the organization stand? We can deal with the merits of mysticism, religion, etc after we clear up the disagreements outlined above.

Karen Karnak So Marx was an anarchist now!? Probably some in DAMTP will agree with you! For me I agree that there are 2 fundamental classes: Bourgeoisie and Proletariat however as I have stated class struggle brings other sub-classes into play - like ...as outlined in the Communist Manifesto - these days for example I do think there is still a peasant class who has different interests from those in the working class but who in uniting with working classes create a situation of mutual proletarianisation... As for a DAMTP position on class - it’s something worth discussing maybe at the conference in August. DAMTP have a collective statement of aims http://www.alytusbiennial.com/constitution.html

Andrius Savickas You deny the existence of racism all over the world - you seem to stick to the illustration of a starving Ethiopian - and this issue for me seems more and more important, because it is of benefit to the bourgeoisie and strongly opposing socialism. People ARE being discriminated because of the skin colour, but by calling you white, it was related to your thinking and rhetoric, rather than your skin colour. White people can think black, black people can think white, so on.

Where I differ from your positions I don’t stick to the relation to the production ONLY. Where did the bourgeoisie come from? Was it not the Europe and its ideas of supremacy? Yes, we are all from Africa, but there were certain moments in history (and the ideologies) which we don’t have any grounds to deny! Because it carries on!

I remember you said that Nazis are only stupid workers. Only? I think that's one of the crucial things: to not allow it happening! Often the racism, the nationalism might be left as unimportant, but that's the enemy as important as capitalist 'freedom' ideology, not to forget authoritarian left.

As I perceive it, proletariat is the class that is determined to abolish capitalism, that is the mentality, which does not equal ones relation to production, but the determination, the conscious interests taken into praxis. As was said before, the queen is welcome to resign (or whatever the term) and join DAMTP - she would be a perfect contributor to crack the royal occultism and to turn in on itself!!! Where we differ, I think, DAMTP is, as it is written in constitution, or even the title itself suggests, an organization for mental class war, instead of becoming politicians or creating a trade union which would institutionally fight for higher wages - so it is not intended for defense.

we can call the middle class a working class, because people are selling their labour, but the people's interests are various. Usually it is to keep their privilege as being above 'blackworking' or 'the grey mass' (one more) and to 'work as a white person' (as is used to say in Lithuania).

if you believe that parliament, by abolishing private property, would make all the racial tensions disappear, then yeah, why not brush it away. I don't believe this, that's one of the reasons why I wasn’t interested in joining SPGB.

Andrius Savickas one more addition from a Black Mask no.10 April/May 1968: Revolution as Being:

...the enemy is within as well as without...
...The proletarian in the last analysis is distinguished from that of the working class; and even, in a fundamental sense, is hostile to it. It thus becomes all the more necessary to distinguish between the two when in our radical subculture proletarian is taken as synonymous with working class. The latter after all is only a category of political economy. As such it reveals a deep passivity when confronted not by the bourgeoisie (toward which the working class has always shown an egalitarian hostility) but by bourgeois civilization. The transformation of the working class into the proletariat takes place therefore not in the realm of political economy, but in the realm of Being. If our use of terms differs somewhat from Marx's, it is still close to his early 1844 ideas.


Johnny Mercer The thing about this white middle class Eurocentric one liner, is I’m dammed if I do and dammed if I don’t. If I for example say that "workers have no country and all should unite for the abolition of the wages system, I’m being neocolonialist and vanguardist, how dare I tell them what to do! (I’m not I’m of course I’m saying what I think WE should do) but if then I say; while we in the SPGB recognize the need for public sector workers to defend the price of their labour power, we urge them to recognize the

To abolish the wages system. Then I get told how blindly Eurocentric I am and unable to see past my western upbringing! In actual fact I think not just that both should happen but that both are inseparable!

So what do I do?

Haha enjoyable discussion non the less, only three ways to resist suicide In this shitty social system; one remain interested (In the system that fucks you itself and all its facets cultural economical etc) two humour (at its contradictions, absurdity, and its fools that run it) three; love (one that includes the maternal paternal, friendship comradeship, and sexual) perhaps the strongest of all three, the only one that can resist economic/social alienation and the hate and mistrust that comes with it.

In fact its further than just resistance to suicide, (and I would ad intellect to the first one) they are also the things a new world can be built on, if we can keep them then we know that the dumbed down, humourless (yet ridicules), loveless social system has not yet sapped our humanity (and by humanity I mean us all even the caps!)

Karen Karnak This ain't about you - it's about us - all I am saying is don't fucking attack us and try and sign us up to your party - we don't give a fuck for parties. If u don't support the dead workers union then I welcome your critique/your own proposals but don't just dismiss us as "mystical posturing". We are an international self organized revolutionary workers organization in other words proletarians.

Andrius Savickas what I would say about this discussion is that if communism is to be brought about by proletariat themselves, each of us have also to do our thinking. What might ironic is that our 'mysticism' takes the existing rituals around reading a book, listening to someone talking etc into account, which I see way less prophetic than bombarding someone with the same few lines… well there are royalists who think they are 'alternative' to capitalism..

Johnny Mercer The thing is though I don’t want you to join the WSM. While we think it’s important that in the end workers take state power from the caps we don’t think and indeed say we don’t think it has to be us. The only thing that’s important about any of this is a majority in favour of socialism/anarchism lib communism etc call it what you will, as long as it means the same thing; stateless moneyless democratic control and common ownership. Right there are royalists that think they are an alternative to cap.

And leftys who do but want to replace it with itself! The point has always been what we replace it with.

I, you and us all are only as important as 1 out of 6.9 billion. This not to say we aren’t individually important we are its just our individual emancipation lies in the collective emancipation and visa/verse. After all there is nothing individual about being an individual! I would sooner see two outside the WSM that understand what needs to be done and have no illusions about how to do it, than one in the party, the party is irrelevant in the long run.

Karen Karnak Awake from false consciousness! DAMTP is what needs to be done comrade! The dead workers union is what needs to be done!

Have no illusion comrade! The Industrial Union of Dead Workers is what must be done!

Johnny you have a corpse in your keyboard!

Johnny Mercer I’ll bear that in mind.